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Thread: Marriage? Where are we headed?

  1. #21
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    At one time; we as a nation held a great reverence for God and his laws. Our nation now mocks him with our laws. That is very dangerous and will only lead to our destruction. Here's a thought: how about the government getting out of the marriage issue all together? No regulations on licensing; tax breaks; telling a pastor who he will marry and who he will not, etc. I am all for that. Let an individuals beliefs dictate his or hers decisions and not the government. "Caesar needs to worry about the things of Caesar and leave gods house be". But as long as the government insists on trying to define marriage then I feel compelled to speak out.

    In Hosea 4-6 God said

    "My people perish for the lack of knowledge".

    I am using that quote out of context a little but I think it has a point that is appropriate in our day and time. The people do have a lack of knowledge. How many really do seek the truth. Not many: for most americans study hall is limited to a 5 minute commentary in the evening news. The truth of it? People don't want to know the truth. What they want is to live a guilt free life without consequences. And what they really don't want is people like me reminding them about what god has to say about such things.

    It's not my intent to ram my religion down anyone's throat. We do not need a federal / state mandated religion. For me; it's like watching one of my children headed down the wrong road. I may not be able to stop them but I have to try. Because I love them. And I would be ashamed of myself if I didn't at least speak out and share gods word on national issues that I believe goes against Gods Will.

    Jesus came not to condemn us because we are condemned already. He came to forgive us! He came to save us! He came to offer us eternal life with him. Jesus didn't come and beat us up with our sin. The "LAW" had done that already.

    Why anyone would not want eternal life is beyond me.

    God Bless!
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  2. #22
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    An interesting article by David J. Dunn PhD......
    New York's recent legalization of gay marriage is being hailed by many as a watershed moment in the history of the fight for equal rights for same sex couples. Whatever the long-term consequences of this decision may be, chances are, in the near term, it will be met with increased opposition from Christian conservatives. Their efforts, which reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of marriage, are misguided at best and sinful at worst. There will always be Christians who oppose "homosexuality" on moral grounds, but enlisting the state to protect "the sanctity of marriage" is a mistake. Such efforts demonstrate a fundamental - even idolatrous - misunderstanding of the meaning of "holy matrimony," effectively denying Christ by vesting the state with divine authority.

    California's infamous Proposition 8 and similar measures sure to make it onto the ballots during next year's election fall prey to the so-called Constantinian temptation. When Constantine legalized Christianity in the early fourth century, some began to see an almost godlike authority in the state. An increasing number of Christians found it difficult to tell the difference between the things that belong to Caesar and the things that belong to God.

    Yet, despite their confusion, those earlier Christians generally knew there was a difference between God and the state, even if they could not always tell where it was. Our sin is worse. Today's Christian conservatives seem to be worshiping America, or at least a certain idea of it, when they ask the government to protect the "sanctity" of marriage. In doing this, they have vested the state with the power to sanctify.

    "Sanctity" is a holiness word. It is what happens when the Holy Spirit (the Spiritus Sanctus in Latin) transforms an ordinary thing into a means of salvation. The Spirit turns bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. She makes ordinary water into the instrument of our second birth. I am Eastern Orthodox, so in my church marriage is another kind of sacrament (like baptism and eucharist). The Holy Spirit turns the husband and wife into an image of Christ and the church.

    I mention my church because we take the idea of marital sanctity to the extreme, at least in our official theology. Marriage, for us, is not a contract or a covenant but a miracle! We have no vows in our ceremonies, only prayers, because only God can make a marriage. We allow but discourage remarriage because, as the Spirit transforms bread and wine, she has transformed the couple into one flesh. Because marriage is sacred, we must be married by a priest in a church, not by a judge in a courthouse or an Elvis impersonator somewhere on the Vegas Strip.

    Strictly speaking, our theology does not recognize the legitimacy of such marriages. They are not sanctified by the Spirit in the church. On the other hand, it is not as if the average Orthodox Christian thinks people married in secular ceremonies are not "really" married. For practical purposes we tacitly recognize these civil marriages even if they don't quite meet our theological standards.

    This tacit recognition of a distinction between sacred and civil marriages is one my fellow Christians would do well to keep in mind as they consider how to proceed in their efforts to protect the sanctity of marriage. Anyone who thinks marriage is something sacred needs to recognize that from the church's perspective all marriages granted by the state for tax and inheritance purposes are just civil unions by another name. Christians who truly believe that marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman are welcome to their belief. But Christians who demand the state take up the task of defending marital sanctity are effectively making the state their god. They seem to think that their local capitol can perform miracles when only the Holy Spirit has the power to sanctify.

    If marriage truly is a sacrament, as many Christians (including myself) believe, then we need to be much more concerned with developing a robust theology of marriage and making that understood among our congregations than with mobilizing them to deny the right of a civil marriage to same-sexed partners. If we believe marriage is a sacrament, then all marriages performed outside the church are civil marriages, and however the state defines marriage can have absolutely no bearing on its sanctity as far as the church is concerned

    Of course, there will be some Christian churches who see gay marriage as a sacrament. In a pluralistic society they are welcome to their belief. It should have no bearing on how Chrsitians relate to society at large but only each other. Disagreements about sacraments are nothing new to the church. We cannot agree on whether we should use leavened or unleavened bread in communion. We cannot agree if Christ is "really" or "spiritually" present in the elements. We cannot agree if baptism is inherently effective or an "outward sign of an inner grace." Infighting about such definitions is one of the church's oldest and most venerable traditions! In medieval times a prince or an emperor might have been called in to settle the matter. How strange it would be for Christians today to demand the state protect the sanctity of the eucharist or baptism! How Constantinian!

    Denying civil marriage to homosexuals does nothing to protect its sanctity. If the state stopped granting marriage licenses altogether, making every union a civil union, the church would still have the sacrament of holy matrimony.

    Christians opposed to gay marriage can continue to see civil marriages as sacramentally illegitimate without sponsoring ballot initiatives to ban it. They are free to join churches that share their views without essentially vesting judges or Elvis or the U.S.A with the power to sanctify. Christians can continue to bicker with each other about which kind of marriages are sacraments, but civil marriages like the kind New York extended to gays fall beyond the purview of the church because they cannot be sacred by definition. This is true for straights and gays.

    Calling upon the state to protect our sacrament is an act of extreme unfaithfulness. Only God can make a marriage holy. Christians can continue to fight about what kinds of marriages "count" as sacred, but we have also learned to agree to disagree about such things. In polite company, and for the sake of keeping peace with each other (because mutual apostasies take so much effort), we can do with marriage what we do with our disagreements about eucharist and baptism: keep our mouths shut and let God sort it out in the end.
    Crank That Jank!

  3. #23
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    That guy nailed it. PHD uh? Education is a wonderful thing. Google too lol. Thanks Wayne. You rolled a 7 with that one.
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  4. #24
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    As a whole, my thought process not towards the marriage portion, but the general homosexuality is that with Pokerface.... The whole act in itself defies not only Church, but Science.... Sex in itself is obviously enjoyable, but that is a mental reaction to something used by science to spawn. Just like mother natures way of telling the bass to get it on in April and May on the river. There isn't supposed to be a chemical reaction to the process with those of the same sex, there is no purpose or reason for it to be there scientifically. With this, in my personal opinion, homosexuals are like pedophiles. I'm not stating this as comparing them as criminals, but that there is some sort of mental issue there with a chemical reaction in the head for a sexual act that defies nature.

    As the human race contiues to repopulate with such diverse genetics, more and more deficiencies will arise.... the question we have to answer is will not only law, but culture as a whole adjust to accomodate and comfort other humans with these traits? Will what was once viewed as common sense be defied by pop culture to allow the "new"? It wasn't that long ago that women were viewed as solely as home makers, and now it is rare to meet a married woman who doesn't work that is capable.... One might even view a non working woman as a "drag" on a household, or be viewed as extremely "lazy", but not 60yrs ago this was not common practice at all. Will same sex marriage be the new norm in 60yrs? If this is what we question now to allow, what will be questioning then in 60yrs? That a 60yr old man should be allowed to marry a 5yr old boy because they are in love and deserve the same tax breaks as me and my wife? I know this might seem as an unfair comparison, but is it really?

    I do not want to be confused with being viewed as slamming Homosexuals because I am not. As I said in my earlier post, I am old enough to see the more "conservative" view, as well as young enough to see the "progessive" view. I hate to think that I would be against something that would affect someone I know in a negative way.... however I also cherrish and apprecaite the old way of things, as that was the way I was raised. I have a personal relationship with this topic as my oldest sibling is a female with a female partner. I have mixed emotional feelings on this, but without mixing emotions into the mix, my gut is telling me that it is wrong on all accounts.

  5. #25
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    I find it amusing that we turn to the Government for acceptance of this issue, the Government didn't write the code of morals and right and wrong, I am not going to get dragged into judgement on this issue, as judgement will be dealt with at the end. If there is a God and his word is plain on this subject, then that is who will judge you in the end, I am not God, therefore I will not judge!

  6. #26
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    Wayne, perfect. Zackly my belief system. Seperation of Church and State is tantamount to an inclusive society. Your post shows the ways and why....

    @EJP1234: Trust Mother Nature, it got us this far. Extreme Solutions come out of lines of thinking like your last one, which I know you don't support. History is full of people trying to "fix" things with aweful results...
    cheers,
    Steve

    2011/2013 St Jude's Charity Tournament Champion
    Bass East Big Bass Challenge winner of 11-12 and 12-1 hours.


  7. #27
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    Mother Nature says any spiecies that cannot reproduce will soon be extinct! Yea: I like the way Steve thinks lol.
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  8. #28
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    A quote "Earlier this week a committee in the Florida House of Representatives heard positions on its “Infants Born Alive” bill, which addresses situations where a child is still born after a failed abortion. Planned Parenthood representatives were on hand, arguing the bill would ultimately make abortions harder to get in the state.

    Alisa LaPolt Snow with Florida Alliance of Planned Parenthood Affiliates presented this perspective, saying in the hearing that even if a child were born alive, she believes it is still the mother’s right to decide its fate.

    “So, um, it is just really hard for me to even ask you this question because I’m almost in disbelief,” said Rep. Jim Boyd. “If a baby is born on a table as a result of a botched abortion, what would Planned Parenthood want to have happen to that child that is struggling for life?”

    “We believe that any decision that’s made should be left up to the woman, her family, and the physician,” said Planned Parenthood lobbyist Snow.

    Rep. Daniel Davis then asked Snow, “What happens in a situation where a baby is alive, breathing on a table, moving. What do your physicians do at that point?”

    “I do not have that information,” Snow replied. “I am not a physician, I am not an abortion provider. So I do not have that information.”

    Unquote

    J1M: So where does it all stop? Tell me again please. I will say it one more time; We have lost our way. JMO
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  9. #29
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    I gotta say I agree with what Squire has said. I've been married 12 years and respect the idea of marriage with a man and a woman. However, if we are all made by God, then God has made us all the way we are, straight, gay, or whatever. I do believe that most gay people will say they were always gay, they didn't make a conscious choice to be gay, they just are. If they love someone that is the same sex, so be it, I can't judge who they love. I'm actually quite happy that they have someone to love. To say that homosexuality is adding to the decay of our country? Seriously? There are so many straight couples that cheat and do so many "un-Christian" things but they are ok because they are straight? I see so many customers with bumperstickers and license plates that "love Jesus" and such but they just got done shoplifting from my store. I'll take a homosexual that loves someone and that holds themselves to a decent moral life than a straight person with lackluster morals. If I am to go to heaven and be judged, I can't see any God that would look down on a human being for being in love with another human being, regardless of sex..... just my .02 cents and I respect everyones opinions and we're lucky to live in a country that can have the freedom to speak their voices... Joefroggy
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  10. #30
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    I agree with Wayne that the religious argument will be for God. No Christian is going to believe that a gay marriage is holy because the government says so. However, for pure policy grounds, there are plenty of non biblical reasons why we would and should not expand secular marriage to gays. This should come as no surprise. Many of the rules that the Bible gave us are rational rules aimed at leading us to healthier life. What if Christians just let people steal because it says not to do it in the Bible and we have no business in Ceasar's world? I encourage more Christians to get involved in the debate but temper the religious speak. If they look and birng light to the perils of letting the insane run the asylum, they have a good chance of influencing the world for the better.
    Thank God For Rednecks

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